Individuality
March 9th 2007 13:50
I would have to say, without the intent of being eogtistical, that I am a very strange christian. Different. Especially in my church. Ash mentioned not long ago that alot of men are following the emo look and unfortunately, it has more than a toehold in many of the "cool" group of my church. Which irritates me. Mainly because it looks stupid. The second is that I don't automatically applaud and get excited when the preacher does. I listen very carefully to what he says. I am also very careful with the words that I use ( I am working HARD at not swearing and have given myself an allowance of one F-bomb per month) and I don't tend to speak christian-ese. That bugs me as well (not the lack of swearing, but christian-ese). These thoughts have been with me awhile and I think that this is the best time to get them down. Right before my brain goes "click" and turns off.
V for Vendetta was a scary movie. But it was scary, because it had a basis of potential fact. I won't go into the political part of it, but the religious part itself was enough to make me think. Strength through Unity, Unity through Faith. Scary words, especially in the wrong hands. But now and then, I hear not perhaps those exact words, but words to that effect. It doesn't scare me, but they do come close to offending me. Deeply.
If it is true that God made us all, and valued each of us so much that He gave us our individual characteristics (I am thinking it is true, by the way) then we have a responsibility to honour that. Our individual character is a sacred trust between man and God. As David said, on his blog, Grace perfects nature, it doesn't destroy it. Which is perfect, honest and indeed biblical. Many of my own struggles with other christians (one in particular, who I forgave a few days ago) is that they seem quite eager to try and reproduce themself in you. Which is amongst the worst things they could ever do. I remember reading in a book somewhere that no man is worthy of recreating in his image, that which God has already made in His.
But the scary trend is that at times the beliefs of these christians are sometimes supported by the man or woman at the pulpit. That we need to be of one accord does not mean we have to think the same. Just because we have one vision does not mean we all have to look the same. We may have the same Word but we don't have the same speech. We have the same example, but we don't follow it all the same way.
Your turn.
JZ
p.s. please, lets NOT turn this into a whingefest.
p.p.s I have put this in a comment down below but with hindsight I am not sure if it is being read. So please, take the time to read this and then comment.
I would also like to write this to all that read this post.
Do I like the emo look? No. To be honest I don't. But hey, I will fight so that you can dress like that if you want. Do I like that there are christians out there that judge by face rather than heart? No. In fact, I am willing to say that they offend me more than you.
I hate when people judge me and then use half an idea to try and beat me to death. So I won't do it to others. I refuse to become that which I oppose. With that being said allow me to say this.
Dress however the hell you like. Feel free. But also understand that I also have the freedom to not like it. As you have the freedom to not like my religion (at times I quite dislike the religion and my next post will be about that) and hurl crap at me I also have the freedom to be a christian and with that freedom I will do what every christian should do to every one of his fellow men.
I will love you. I may not like you, I may not get along with you. I may not enjoy spending time with you but if I can help you out I will. I may not be the nicest or smartest person that there is but I will do my best to speak to you in the spirit of charity and understanding.
God bless you.
JZ
V for Vendetta was a scary movie. But it was scary, because it had a basis of potential fact. I won't go into the political part of it, but the religious part itself was enough to make me think. Strength through Unity, Unity through Faith. Scary words, especially in the wrong hands. But now and then, I hear not perhaps those exact words, but words to that effect. It doesn't scare me, but they do come close to offending me. Deeply.
If it is true that God made us all, and valued each of us so much that He gave us our individual characteristics (I am thinking it is true, by the way) then we have a responsibility to honour that. Our individual character is a sacred trust between man and God. As David said, on his blog, Grace perfects nature, it doesn't destroy it. Which is perfect, honest and indeed biblical. Many of my own struggles with other christians (one in particular, who I forgave a few days ago) is that they seem quite eager to try and reproduce themself in you. Which is amongst the worst things they could ever do. I remember reading in a book somewhere that no man is worthy of recreating in his image, that which God has already made in His.
But the scary trend is that at times the beliefs of these christians are sometimes supported by the man or woman at the pulpit. That we need to be of one accord does not mean we have to think the same. Just because we have one vision does not mean we all have to look the same. We may have the same Word but we don't have the same speech. We have the same example, but we don't follow it all the same way.
Your turn.
JZ
p.s. please, lets NOT turn this into a whingefest.
p.p.s I have put this in a comment down below but with hindsight I am not sure if it is being read. So please, take the time to read this and then comment.
I would also like to write this to all that read this post.
Do I like the emo look? No. To be honest I don't. But hey, I will fight so that you can dress like that if you want. Do I like that there are christians out there that judge by face rather than heart? No. In fact, I am willing to say that they offend me more than you.
I hate when people judge me and then use half an idea to try and beat me to death. So I won't do it to others. I refuse to become that which I oppose. With that being said allow me to say this.
Dress however the hell you like. Feel free. But also understand that I also have the freedom to not like it. As you have the freedom to not like my religion (at times I quite dislike the religion and my next post will be about that) and hurl crap at me I also have the freedom to be a christian and with that freedom I will do what every christian should do to every one of his fellow men.
I will love you. I may not like you, I may not get along with you. I may not enjoy spending time with you but if I can help you out I will. I may not be the nicest or smartest person that there is but I will do my best to speak to you in the spirit of charity and understanding.
God bless you.
JZ
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Comment by hewhocutsdown
Now, everybody together now: We are all individuals! We are all individuals! We are all individuals!
There is a fine line but a significant distinction between community and hierarchy.
In a hierarchy, there is almost a sense of being propped up. This was especially noticeable 10-20 years ago, where the fall of a single, high-profile individual would cause entire ministerial empires to collapse.
Today that trend is somewhat tempered, but is not abolished by any means. I see this as symptomatic of humanity's unwillingness to accept freedom. To a small degree, we want autonomy and the ability to make decisions which affect our lives, but true choice and it's subsequent consequences is often far too threatening. I've fallen into this time and again myself, despite a desperately strong desire to be 'free'.
It's far easier, and far safer, to evade making decisions on my own, or in the context of my community and simply regurgitate what is fed to me. Paul's admonition to 'test everything, hold on to the good' is paramount, but for many, the testing stage is avoided. It requires caution (which to some, seems the antithesis of faith) and wisdom.
On that note, the Holy Spirit is a wonderful gift, but he also makes us culpable for our decisions. We can't simply feign ignorance, or say 'oops, I didn't know'; as Christians, we are given the freedom to truly accept or reject Christ, we are given the wisdom and discernment to make the decisions in our lives, and the power to follow through with them. That sounds great, until you try and live it. Truly, it's only grace that makes it bearable.
A personal example: In church on the weekend, we were singing a new song, and the chorus read:
"Jesus, you did it all
I owe you everything"
To be honest, I refused to sing the second line. Did I owe everything? Yes, but because of Christ's working (Jesus doing it all) I no longer owe him anything. Now we are able to operate in a loving relationship, which does not function as lender/debtor. I, like Josh, pore over the messages; it's wonderful when they are scriptural, but even some of my favorite teachers have deviated from the scriptures from time to time, and pure acceptance opens myself to these as well.
This is not to say I am without my own personal heresies, but simply to say so does most everyone else.
To close, I have to recommend Boundless Line's blog post on Lazy, Fantasized Bible Study. It embodies the laziness inherent to us all when we refuse to take advantage of the freedom that Christ has bought so dearly.
Lazy, Fantasized Bible Study at Boundless Line
Comment by Ash
Australian Traveller
Flashes of memories
Individuality...what does that mean when we all have to, even in the smallest way, conform to something to be a part pf society? We take little snippets of the good that we see in others to make ourselves individuals, we read bits and pieces and take from that what we want...to make ourselves individuals....how we interpret all that information.. is that where our individuality comes from?
I find it so confusing about what to believe, who to believe, when to believe it... and being a Christian, albeit not the best example of one, I find that it confuses matters even more. If something feels like it is good and right then surely it is....and I mean really feels right... deep down...not like feeling right as in...hhhmmmm getting drunk every weekend feels great therefore it must be right....am I making sense?
I think it is good to listen to what everyone has to say...but then draw our own conclusion on it and make sure that we are constantly arming ourselves with information that will allow us to make the best possible decisions.
Whew being a human is hard work hey!
ash
Comment by hewhocutsdown
The problem with being crazy about learning is you're then responsible for your knowledge, and translating that to action, and I for one sure as hell don't make that translation very well.
I mean, there are large portions of life I don't understand, but I understand that I know I'm very much a hypocrite already *laughs*. A bit of cognitive dissonance doesn't always help the matter.
I like your comment regarding 'where does this individuality come from'? That's an excellent point; we don't exist in a vacuum, and despite the obsession of being 'individuals', we're more patchwork than wholly individual. Large portions of my tastes, habits, obsessions and beliefs are adopted from what I've seen or heard from others.
But we see our humanity clearer in community; the guy on the mountain may have a clear idea what he's about, but try communicating that. Like it or not, the world is what we've got, and the people around us are who we've got, and you get to make use of that. Communication and living one's own beliefs in such circumstances is an incredibly frustrating endeavor sometimes.
Not a very encouraging reply, this, and I apologize. My heart is with you, though, as I feel similarly.
Comment by Ash
Australian Traveller
Flashes of memories
well said...the more that I speak to people about these things the more that i realise that everyone is just as confused as everyone else...even the people who seem to have it together...which I guess is a little reassuring as we are all in the same boat. In this way your reply is very encouraging....it means I don`t need a straight jacket after all
The confusing thing about learning...is that is leads to more questions than it does answers...and it is finding that cut off point that is difficult. I know we have to keep on learning but sometimes you can send yourself insane with all the possibilities that are out there.
We plod on though and do the best we can to make ourselves better people, that is the main thing I am sure.
Comment by Ahmed
techy.Bytes
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
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Qwerk
Cinema Three
Faith comes first for me.
As for individuals versus doing what the crowd does, I think it's just an illusion, a crowd is full of individuals like a house is built of bricks, it's a house when you look at it but it's made of individual bricks, can't change that.
So basically individuals make crowds, a crowd is full of individuals.
btw I hate emo's, or just the really excessive emo's
Comment by katyzzz
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katyzzz
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
well, glad to see that I can leave you guys alone and not come back to a mess....
Jords, In alot of what you write I can see that you have not only read Subversion, but learned from it as well. And like you, I am a man wandering home at night, drunkenly reeling from side to side. I may step this way and that, but I am getting home.
Ash, I am glad that you and Jordan have had such a great talk. LIke every time you visit, you have been a breath of fresh air, and a very honest one.
Ahmed, I agree with the way you have rearranged the saying. To a great degree you are right, the crowd IS made up of individuals. What frustrates me is when individuals forget that other individuals have the right to be individuals. A friend of mine worded that philosophy perfectly. It is fine for you to be an individual as long as you are an individual like me. That is my main beef that I wanted to bring up with this post.
Hi Katyzzz,
um, what was it that you noticed?
JZ
Comment by DuskDevi
Rucks and Rolls
Rugby World Cup 2007
What can I add other than my vote and compliments...
Excellent post.
Excellent comments.
Individuality is in the I of the Individual.
Hope you are well my friend.
Excellent post.
Dusk
Comment by Cibbuano
20/20 Filmsight
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I helped a friend play music for something his church was doing... it was all good and fine, until they handed out these papers with these bizarre phrases written on it.
When the time came, everyone starting chanting these words, which I guess the preacher had written, and were full of, what I found to be, half-inspired adorations of Christ.
I didn't go along with it. It seemed weird and ritualistic.
Comment by David
Firstly ... My mind is drawn to George Orwell and how he put phrases like 'Big Brother' and 'Thought Police' into common usage (overusage in the case of the TV show ...
So when I read a word like 'Christianese' ...
That ranks up there with the best Orwellian phrases ... and I hope one day it gets included in common usage...
Secondly, there's a passage in Sacred Scripture (and don't ask me to reference it ... I can't remember where it is, just what it is ...
Jesus began to do and to teach ...
Doing comes before teaching ... and anyone who can't do what they tell (preach) others to do is a hypocrite ... (and Churches are full of hypocrites) ... I won't teach religion but I'll teach creative writing ...
If you look at elite sport, you'll find the best coaches are the ones who don't ask the players to do anything they haven't already done themselves ... And sometimes, when I'm in a rare contemplative mood ... I'll often think of the band of Apostles like a team of elite athletes ... and Christ as the coach ... I mean, even St Paul made references to sport ... Something like, 'Not all those who run in the race receive the prize but I run as one after the prize.' ... [very poor translation ... but again ... I can't be bothered looking up the reference ...
In Australia? Sport is the main religion ... Which begs the question as to how St Paul would preach today ... what analogies he would draw ... (I doubt he'd pick Roman athletics ... He'd probably make a reference to Rugby or Football or Cricket ...
My grandmother had one of the best sayings around ...
"I've lived my religion [not preached it, hypocrite-style]."
David ...
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Great to have you around, and always good to have your comments and support.
JZ
Comment by Anonymous
Whatever.
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Sorry that I have taken far too long to reply.
I agree, as far as religion goes in this country, sport is a big one. But so is gossip and tall poppy killing.
And the difference between what some practise and some preach is seperated by a wonderfully large chasm. Which is frustrating.
Always good to have you around Dave.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Thankyou.
And if you can, please come back in a couple of days.
JZ
Comment by Anonymous
I personally am atheist, and I do believe that religion only devides our world, and causes wars and death. If there is a "god", then let him strike me down, now as I type, for yes I have sinned. I have sinned, so I am told, for being different from the pompous christians. I have sinned, because I am individual. So yes Josh, judge others, just as the bible tells us to do. Go on and rave about that new "emo" kid in church because he is different. And know, that you have done what "god" has wished of you. You have become a mindless zombie.
Sincerly,
Lauren
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Some very interesting points. Thank you for proving that you can think. And that you can think for yourself.
The first about ripping on someone I said that I think the look is stupid. And I do. I won't argue that one at all. If you think me a facist for not liking a current fashion trend well fair enough.
If you think all christians are alike, you either know far too many and not very well or far too few. I attend a pentecostal church. I have a friend that goes to an anglican church. My girlfriend goes to a baptist church. I was brought up in a catholic church. Each of these denominations believes the same thing in a different way. I won't go into the details right now, but a quick look on google will more than likely provide all the detail that you need.
The other thing I would point out, if I may be so bold is that you really don't know enough about christians or you don't care enough to learn enough. Using the premise of your statement, I would say that the first is true and excuseable and the second might be true and if you are wishing to argue, inexcusable. I would suggest some reading, if you have the time. The Ball and The Cross by Chesterton is brilliant and is about the dialogue between a somewhat misguided christian zealot and an atheist.
If you say I am brainwashed I would agree. But I would agree in that I try to keep my mind clean. If you say I am a zombie I would also agree. I do indeed wish to devour brains, if only to have interesting thoughts.
Religion dividing? Yup. But so does alot of things. And the first world war began without any relgion whatsoever. The second was caused by idealism which is a kind of religion but without the sense of responsibility. And the current conflict is profit motivated rather than religiously based. Religion is like any other idea (I am speaking of religion as a system of thought) in that it is unfortunately not responsible for who believes in it.
If you are wanting serious and sincere discussion I will welcome it. If you are wanting to slap me in the face I know only one way to respond.
God bless you.
With sincerity and hope.
JZ
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Comment by Your all holy shits
Comment by Anonymous
IM EM0Comment by Anonymous
I'm one so what.
Emo's are also human being's so I don't get why lots of people make fun of us.
For example gangsters kill, steal, do drugs and all that and no one really made fun of them as much as you people made fun of us.
So just stop it, please! We're also human's.
And honestly just stop wasting your time making fun and talking crap about us.
Comment by DuskDevi
Rucks and Rolls
Rugby World Cup 2007
...this is like yelling at the children to be quiet...
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by DuskDevi
Rucks and Rolls
Rugby World Cup 2007
Josh wrote:
My interpretation of this is that Josh feels these guys are doing it to be cool and not because they actually believe and live the lifestyle.
It's like dressing up as 'punk rocker' with false piercings and a wig just because it's a look du jour.
Or...this.... and it affects me personally because I am Indian.
...wearing Indian clothing and espousing Eastern spirituality whithout actually knowing what true Karma is. Practising yoga and lighting incense does not a guru make.
If you believe in what you are...why so defensive?
And next time...READ before you screech.
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
glad to see you around. There has been a distinct lack of gamma flavour in these pages of late.
The interesting thing is that most of the people screaming at me are teenagers. And hey, it is alot easier to scream heretic than to actually find out if the earth really DOES orbit around the sun.
And yes, that is what bothers me the most. I don't like the look of the emo. I'll happily admit that. But I don't and won't beat people up for how they look.
Glad to see ya Dusk.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Do I like the emo look? No. To be honest I don't. But hey, I will fight so that you can dress like that if you want. Do I like that there are christians out there that judge by face rather than heart? No. In fact, I am willing to say that they offend me more than you.
I hate when people judge me and then use half an idea to try and beat me to death. So I won't do it to others. I refuse to become that which I oppose. With that being said allow me to say this.
Dress however the hell you like. Feel free. But also understand that I also have the freedom to not like it. As you have the freedom to not like my religion (at times I quite dislike the religion and my next post will be about that) and hurl crap at me I also have the freedom to be a christian and with that freedom I will do what every christian should do to every one of his fellow men.
I will love you. I may not like you, I may not get along with you. I may not enjoy spending time with you but if I can help you out I will. I may not be the nicest or smartest person that there is but I will do my best to speak to you in the spirit of charity and understanding.
God bless you.
JZ
Comment by DuskDevi
Rucks and Rolls
Rugby World Cup 2007
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
Though I will admit that Catholics have the upper hand in religion, they are not the only ones who believe in god. I also agree with the other person who admitted a post today that all religions fall under the same teaching..I guess you could say...but they are practiced in a different way. So it doesn't matter if you were brought up catholic, baptist, or angelican church because the all fall under the same teaching.
But I guess that the sauddi arabian area doesn't agree or they wouldn't have bombed the twin towers or hit the pentagon. But that's another factor that isn't going to be brought up... right......josh?
Thanks for listening.
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
I know what being depressed is. After suffering 10 years of it I know exactly what it is. After having come out of it without any medication or professional counselling (though I am not saying that they are bad, perhaps I should have asked for them) I do know what being depressed is.
I also know how frustrating it is to be depressed and to be surrounded by people who have attitudes that are far too good.
To answer your questions. I like gossip and I hate gossip. Which is why I try to avoid it. I don't gossip about my friends. Everything that is important that needs to be said should be said at a range of two feet, or as close as you can get to that. And I'm not a fan of people that gossip so I rarely hang out with them.
I hope that answers your questions.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
(guys, leaving a name or something would help)
Yes, terrible things have been done by the church. The crusades and religious persecution are among the worst of our history and for what it is worth I am sorry that it happened. I hope to never see it repeated, though I know that religious persecution hasn't stopped. It's not something that I am proud of or happy with.
You should read what Luther actually wrote. His early work is supposed to be amazing, though his later work is worth avoiding. He had health problems and they made him cranky. I'd also recommend The Subversion of Christianity by Jacques Ellul, if you've the time. A short read but very heavy duty. And yes, people turning away from the catholic church to turn to God was a good thing. Not everything about that period was great and it would take too long to talk about. I hope you'll excuse me for not doing so.
As far as denominations go, most of us are pretty well the same, I'd agree with that. But as far as all religions being the same, I would disagree.
The reason I did not bring up what was done on september 11 was because I am not a muslim. I am not going to throw a punch at them because technically, I am supposed to turn the other cheek. But consider this, if that area had been treated with charity and kindness instead of being manipulated to war, would 9/11 have happened?
JZ
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
The whole poitical issue in the middle east is a confusing one with many sides. A buddy of mine would say that there is plenty that the US did to bring about the situation it is now trying to clean up.
Whatever, this is not the time or place for that arguement.
I also believe that I do understand what you are talking about. At least, I am pretty sure. If you are saying that depending on who God is talking to, He shows a different face. Right and wrong. God shows us Himself, but we don't see every bit of it. If you are speaking more about a concept of God, then you are right. Different groups do tend to focus on different aspects of God, or give God different aspects and keep others away from Him. Which is a case of the pot telling the potter what shape it ought to be.
Make sense?
JZ
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
funnily enough I have worked with a couple of guys that have read the satanic bible. Their philosophy was that one should be harmoious but that any offence should be repaid ten times over.
Personally, never met anyone that admitted to devil worship, though I do know some people that used to be involved with the occult.
What do I think of them? That they are people. And as they are people, I have to love them as best I can.
JZ
Comment by Person unannounced...
i also like to ask if you've ever gotten annoyed with always having to explain yourself with everything you say.
Juz wonderin