Rev. Dustin ParkerLeft Behind Should Have Been
Well, this one kind of came out of left field.
Christians making video games where you are forced to kill people and then pray for redemption. Brilliant. Didn't we do that with the crusades?
I haven't played the game, have no intention to, but I don't think it should have been made. To produce a game, slap a cross on it and then say, and I quote the press release with "There is no blood or gore in Left Behind: Eternal Forces. The game is designed to be a classic battle between good and evil, but it does not gratuitously depict violence or death." and "Because our game is a ‘strategy' game, never does a player click a key or press a button to actuate a first-person violent act. Instead, control is managed by the player in much the same way as an animated chess game would be when pieces fight for position, except that in ‘real-time' strategy games, many pieces fight for position at the same time." Doesn't mean that there is no violence or no christian sanctioned killing. It just means it isn't dressed well and is viewed from a distance.
I play video games. There, I admitted it publicly. I have played Devil May Cry, Metal Gear Solid, Baldur's Gate, Oblivion and alot of other games like that. They are great games. The story is good, the gameplay very good. But I never played them because of their ideology, or in some cases, lack thereof. I played them to relax a little, and because alot of games now actually have interesting storylines that as a writer, I can appreciate them. But I don't use them to preach with. I don't think games ought be used for that.
Do I think christians should make computer games? Why not? We've written fantasy novels and made movies so computer games aren't much of a step along. But the best of them (and by best I mean the works of Tolkein and Lewis) didn't bring the cross into it. The cross is personal. The values of it, goodness, courage, love, redemption are what we give to everyone else.
JZ
Christians making video games where you are forced to kill people and then pray for redemption. Brilliant. Didn't we do that with the crusades?
I haven't played the game, have no intention to, but I don't think it should have been made. To produce a game, slap a cross on it and then say, and I quote the press release with "There is no blood or gore in Left Behind: Eternal Forces. The game is designed to be a classic battle between good and evil, but it does not gratuitously depict violence or death." and "Because our game is a ‘strategy' game, never does a player click a key or press a button to actuate a first-person violent act. Instead, control is managed by the player in much the same way as an animated chess game would be when pieces fight for position, except that in ‘real-time' strategy games, many pieces fight for position at the same time." Doesn't mean that there is no violence or no christian sanctioned killing. It just means it isn't dressed well and is viewed from a distance.
I play video games. There, I admitted it publicly. I have played Devil May Cry, Metal Gear Solid, Baldur's Gate, Oblivion and alot of other games like that. They are great games. The story is good, the gameplay very good. But I never played them because of their ideology, or in some cases, lack thereof. I played them to relax a little, and because alot of games now actually have interesting storylines that as a writer, I can appreciate them. But I don't use them to preach with. I don't think games ought be used for that.
Do I think christians should make computer games? Why not? We've written fantasy novels and made movies so computer games aren't much of a step along. But the best of them (and by best I mean the works of Tolkein and Lewis) didn't bring the cross into it. The cross is personal. The values of it, goodness, courage, love, redemption are what we give to everyone else.
JZ
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
I've looked into left behind and I can safelysay it is the most laughably silly concept to have ever come into gaming, I mean that in every sense, I don't think the concept behind super mario is more silly than left behind.
(insert voice from Law and Order)
A brooklyn plumber one day tripped over and found a kingdom of magic mushrooms. This is his story.
See you 'round.
JZ
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Philosophy Blog
I guess I'm personally inclined to think that propaganda is propaganda. It might differ in subtlety, but it's still propaganda...
And, since everyone should be allowed to express their opinion and try to persuade others -- ie, to engage in propaganda -- then on free speech grounds the Mormons should be permitted their crusader fantasies...
Josh, is it, in your opinion, immoral that they made the game, or is it just tacky?
Not sure, but just a thought.
Rugby World Cup 2007
You are a balanced human being.
Believe me...this is a compliment of the highest order.
Balance is a Holy Scale.
Dusk
Hunt Famous
Orble Post of the Day
Fat Cult
Techbreak
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
"To keep the balance of power in your favor, you'll have to find non-violent ways to avoid getting killed. Your units will definitely fight back in a life or death situation but, for the most part, you want to either avoid your enemies or have a ready plan to convert to your side using musicians and disciples"
So people get converted based on lyrics they hear, if only it were that simple...
I'll try to respond to all of your comments at once.
I liked Super Mario brothers. It was among the first video games I ever played. The plot was very simple (simple, a little silly, perhaps a little inspired by drugs) and fun. The Left Behind series I have to admit, I read a few books and they are kind of like potato chips. They don't taste great, not really good for you, but you can't stop yourself. If anyone here did enjoy them, more power to you.
I read your last comment. If things worked like that in real life, Hillsong church would have taken over Sydney along time ago.
(not bashing them, I know far too many wonderful people from that church)
It sounds like an interesting game but I stand by my convictions.
Come back some time.
JZ
I think it is tacky because the books aren't that good, so my theory is the game is going to match it.
I think it is immoral because there was theology in the books that was kind of brushed aside, and that telling people a game isn't violent when it is isn't right.
I agree with you, in a way. Propaganda is indeed propaganda. But I don't think that CS Lewis or Tolkein wrote to make people think black was white or vice versa. They had a story they wanted to tell that they could not tell as they did if they had not been who they were (did that make sense?).
Thanks for coming by man,
JZ
Your comment is a good one, and very honest.
Do some people use christianity to make money? Yes. Should they exploit it to make a profit unethically? No. Should christians make money? Well, yes. We shouldn't love it, but we should use it to do good.
There are people that use christianity as a stepping stone, in order to further themselves. If they are doing this with the idea of trying to trick people and take advantage of them, well, aside from lacking ethics it generally isn't a good idea. What we do to people tends to catch up with us sooner or later. Where they trying to perhaps trick God? That's probably not smart either. That WILL catch up with you.
Great to have you here, I hope you come back some time.
JZ
Shine on you mostest crazy diamond.
JZ
thankyou for restoring my faith in gamers.
If you can get a copy of the review I wouldn't mind reading it.
Come back again soon.
JZ
Flashes of memories
I`m glad to see that they are sending out such a great message to kids these days in a very powerful voice - SIN NOW AND REPENT LATER! It`s great....NOT! No wonder kids think they way they do with messages like this being drummed into them.
Hopefully most of them will see through the dodgy lines!
Have a great Christmas.
Ash
Well, I guess it is slightly better than the message the catholic church once tried to put across. Repent now and sin later (do a little research into what indulgences were).
I am all for repentance, but I can't ever shake this passage I read once. Go now and do works worthy of repentance.
JZ
Flashes of memories
I will have to ponder on this one...it has given me something to think about...I'll be back!!!!!!!!
Ash
Hurry back, you've piqued my curiosity.
JZ
Flashes of memories
Ok so I have done a little reading on the subject of indulgences and was quite interested by what I saw. I am a Christian, I believe in God and I try to live a good and decent life. I will be the first to admit that I am very far from being perfect and have made so many mistakes.I have a more personal worship though, I don`t go to Church every Sunday, which I know that I should, but rather I go when I feel like I need to be there. I talk to God everyday, several times a day and to me this more personal.
So when I read about Induglences I got a little confused there as I don`t really have a lot of background into the Catholic faith. From what I can understand the Men of the Church are the ones who decide how you pay for your sins. I realise that they have devoted their lives to the study of the Bible so are probably in a position to understand what God wants, but really at the end of the day it still comes down to a mans decision. Who else to decide if your sins are forgiven than God Himself. It is easy to look like you have repented, but really in your mind is it reflecting your actions? Perhaps not.
I am always intrigued by Confession too - does saying prayers and admitting to your sin immediately mean you have repented? Surely your have to show that you are truely sorry for your sins by your actions? We have a young boy staying with us who comes from a very religious family. He has the utmost respect for his mom and dad and at first I thought he was a really good guy. As I have gotten to know him over the weeks I have become very disappointed with my own judgement of his character. He treats everyone around him like he is the king and we should all be his slaves. He kept asking to go to Church because he was saying how long he had been without going to Confession - he knew that he was sinning and by the sounds of things thought that by going to Confession it would right everything. I don`t understand how that is living by Christian values.
Ayways I am probably totally off topic now and have rambled on about the same thing. I will have to read up more on the beliefs and backgrounds to truely grasp the concept of the Catholic faith. I do not mock it or the followers, I am just not armed with enough information to understand it properly.
Confused Ash!
I'll break this one down as I go.
The first thing is that I believe that our personal relationship with God comes first. Communal faith is indeed part of being a christian but without the personal relationship it isn't the real thing.
I had a basic catholic upbringing, but to be honest I don't know exactly how they rate them or how they decide exactly what you owe to make up for it. As far as I know, theologically speaking, the price has already been paid. It was paid on a cross a couple of thousand years ago. What it comes down to is that scripture I quoted, "Therefore go and do works worthy of repentance" and my other favourite, "Believe in your heart and confess with your lips."
At the end of the day, how do we know really that we're saved, that we really know God? well, admittedly, there is a lot of faith we have to have in that area. We don't assume everything is okay and then go do what we like, thinking "well, I like to sin and God likes to forgive, so we get along fine." Personally, I think that is crap. We have to grow up, and do the best we can, knowing that it isn't good enough, but knowing also that we are loved and forgiven.
JZ
Flashes of memories
I found your post - have been having a few problems with the whole 'Yes' and 'No' notification of replies.
I am struggling at the moment with what I believe in and what I don`t believe in - it all seems very confusing. As with yourself I was brought up with a very basic knowledge of my religion - Anglican - and I don`t think that i have enough of the facts to know where I actually stand. This is what makes a lot of people Atheists I think - Christians go to Church on Sunday and then spend Monday - Saturday living completely different lives. When confronted about this they do not have the knowledge to answer the questions and in so doing appear hypocritical.
I am starting to think that our lives are a journey of self-discovery - we have many lessons that need to be learned and we are tainted souls, that is for sure.
As with the above chatter on Indulgences there are some things that I struggle with when it comes to Teachings - why would God make us suffer so and what gives another man the power to tell me how to repent. Interpretation is such a big thing, I am sure everyone would have a different one, so is it not therefore up to me to decide which interpretation i choose to follow...if I am armed with enough facts and have the Faith to follow it up?
Ash
I'm glad you replied.
In my case I don't know heaps about catholicism. The story of my conversion will be posted sometime tonight, which I hope helps you.
Does God make us suffer? Interesting question. Some would say that by having the power to stop us suffer and not using it is effectively making us suffer. I don't think God makes us suffer. Really. I read a book last year by a guy named Philip Yancey, called Disappointment with God. It's a good book. It answers some of the questions that you might have that I can't answer well enough to help you.
Does one man have complete power over us as far as our walk with God goes? No. Well, yes though that is in my case. In my case it is me. I make that decision. In your case it is you. Does my interpretation of the Bible come from me alone? No. I'm not bright enough for that kind of thing. Some things I can get right, other things I am pretty dumb. Granted, in order to find out when I am right, if there is something I am wondering about, I do some reading, some thinking. I weigh it up against other things that I know are true. For when I don't know, I try to find someone that does. Makes me glad that I go to church and spend time with other believers that do know the answers to what I don't know. CS Lewis once remarked that christians don't always see enough of God in other christians. Dostoyevsky said that everyone is, "like me, an image and likeness of God." (The Brothers Karamazov, the Elder Zosima's Discourse). Sometimes, God speaks to us through other people. Sometimes, He speaks to us directly.
That is pretty well where I get my facts from. I hope this helped.
JZ
Flashes of memories
Think I need to arm myself more with the facts and then i will be able to answer better!
Excellent debate
Ash
Yeah, interpretation is a pretty big thing. If you like I can give you a list of books that I have found very helpful.
I can also recommend a few good sites to have a look at.
www.nineteensix.com is a site that I have written for a few times. They have some good people there and the guy that runs it wants to start talking about some very controversial stuff.
Hope to see you around.
JZ
Flashes of memories
There has been in incredible amount of MISINFORMATION published in the media and in online blogs here and elsewhere.
Pacifist Christians and other groups are taking the game material out of context to support their own causes. There is NO “killing in the name of God” and NO “convert or die”. There are NO “negative portrayals of Muslims” and there are NO “points for killing”.
Please play the game demo for yourself (to at least level 5 of 40) to get an accurate perspective, or listen to what CREDIBLE unbiased experts are saying after reviewing the game at www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/controversy.com
Then, we’d love to hear your feedback as an informed player.
The reality is that we’re receiving reports everyday of how this game is positively affecting lives by all who play it.
Thank you for taking the time to be a responsible blogger.
after having recieved this comment (and having had watched my youngest brother EthanZ play the demo and help me write this) I feel that I can now not only respond to this comment with my own, but post this as a post in itself.
This game sucks.
And I speak as a gamer. And a christian. A christian gamer.
First, I shall approach how it sucks as a game.
1.Graphics poor. This is a shallow point, but as a user interface, it is inadequate. To quote Ethan "The buildings are really big and fill up the screen, the units are too small and it's hard to distinguish which are which. Guiding the camera to get a good view is a bitch." For my own opinion, I can only agree. Graphics is not only about how a game looks, but how a player can change their own perspective on the world of the game. You guys should have studied Dawn of War. This WILL be mentioned later as well. On a purely on how stuff looks, it looks pretty, but pretty in the wrong way.
2.Gameplay. Well, the point of a game is that you PLAY it. Gameplay is the redeemer of bad graphics (or at least, bad LOOKING graphics) bad story line, bad voice acting etc. In fact, gameplay is EVERYTHING. If only this game had some. And now over to Ethan. "Well people, the gameplay suffers because I can't shoot enough people. Well, maybe the shooting isn't that important. The units lack depth as compared to Warcraft 3. In WC3, you have your combat solider, but you also have your better soldiers and other units. Every unit is not only distinct from every other unit in the army, but every unit in the game. In this game you have your solider and the guy that keeps him alive. That is pretty well it. So the game isn't about killing, its supposed to be about faith, which is pretty well just converting people to your side, building churches and reading life stories. Seriously, Medieval Total War II can teach you more about catholicism than these people can. There was not enough need for micro, which affects strategy games. A good strategy game requires a gamer to have good micro to make it interesting. It also needs a gamer to have good strategy skills. This game needs either. There are things that make a game really fun to play. This game has none of them. Dawn of War is fun because of the pace, and the flowing game style."
3.Sound. The cheerful orchestral soundtrack of good is nice. Lets not forget the works of art of Marty O'Donnell with the Halo series and Harry Gregson Williams with the Metal Gear Solid series. Let us also NOT forget Homeworld either, which won awards for it's musical score (which included Adagio for strings). The only problem with sound is the chanting. Hey, no one loves the brainless chanting of the living dead more than me. But when you get three or more units in one group, the zombielike tones they take on is more suitable to a pseudo religious din. But seriously, we christians only sound like we're chanting if we're Gregorian monks. The voice acting is pretty poor. Except the tutorial guy. We like him.
My turn. That being me. Josh.
As a christian, my biggest complaints against the game aren't religious ones. They are ethical ones. The books themselves and game share the same fault. Poor construction at a basic level. Characters, dialogue and plot all matched with graphics, gameplay and sound. Clumsy, clumsy and not interesting enough to be redeeming. They were terribly made and could have been done better.
JZ and EZ