Political Atheism
June 28th 2007 08:13
Ever get curious about the little sidebar links that are on your pages? I was and I decided to click on one of them that was for a bunch of lads and lasses called the Freedom Party of Australia. What they wish to do, is to have Australia completely free of religion. Some of you may agree, some of you may not. I don't agree, but even more, I completely disagree with the name of their party.
They listed as part of their policies that religious garb in schools will be completely outlawed and that circumcision on both men and women will also be illegal. I am not going to open up the can of worms marked "Religious Persecution of Women" (maybe later) but I am most certainly prepared and eager to open the can marked "Unreligious Persecution of Religion". The Freedom party does not actually want people to be free. Mainly I suspect, because they themselves do not understand what freedom actually is. Most people believe that freedom is merely the right and ability to do whatever you wish. In other words, they believe in irresponsibility. Terry Pratchett's quote on freedom remains one of the best I have ever read "That no practical definition of freedom is complete without the freedom to take the consequences." Jacques Ellul's quote on freedom (which I am paraphrasing) is that freedom is not a lack of responsibility, it is in fact total responsibility. With this being clarified, I am now prepared to continue.
I don't actually wear any religious garb at all. I wear no Crucifix (I keep it on the inside, where it belongs), no skullcap, no headscarf, etc etc. I am no muslim, yet I am prepared to argue that they if they wish to wear the marks of their religion, I am more than prepared to stand up for them. If any group would begrudge them their freedoms, they do so as well to mine.
What ought to also be mentioned is that most of the governments that decided to throw out religion were pretty terrible in themselves. I cannot remember the poet that said it (though I think it was T.S. Elliot) yet one of them claimed that "If you would not have God then you can have Hitler or Stalin" Harsh words, but quite fair. Communist nations and the Nazi regime were quick to destroy religion and religious allegiance to God (I know that for awhile some lutherans quite liked the nazis but then found out their ultimate goal) and then also very quick to destroy the rights of man.
I am not saying that the best governments are ones that swear on the Bible before making laws, nor am I saying that only christians should be in charge. I have met too many christians (including myself). What I am saying, is that should a political party truly wish to be known for promoting freedoms, they should include my freedom to believe differently to them.
JZ
They listed as part of their policies that religious garb in schools will be completely outlawed and that circumcision on both men and women will also be illegal. I am not going to open up the can of worms marked "Religious Persecution of Women" (maybe later) but I am most certainly prepared and eager to open the can marked "Unreligious Persecution of Religion". The Freedom party does not actually want people to be free. Mainly I suspect, because they themselves do not understand what freedom actually is. Most people believe that freedom is merely the right and ability to do whatever you wish. In other words, they believe in irresponsibility. Terry Pratchett's quote on freedom remains one of the best I have ever read "That no practical definition of freedom is complete without the freedom to take the consequences." Jacques Ellul's quote on freedom (which I am paraphrasing) is that freedom is not a lack of responsibility, it is in fact total responsibility. With this being clarified, I am now prepared to continue.
I don't actually wear any religious garb at all. I wear no Crucifix (I keep it on the inside, where it belongs), no skullcap, no headscarf, etc etc. I am no muslim, yet I am prepared to argue that they if they wish to wear the marks of their religion, I am more than prepared to stand up for them. If any group would begrudge them their freedoms, they do so as well to mine.
What ought to also be mentioned is that most of the governments that decided to throw out religion were pretty terrible in themselves. I cannot remember the poet that said it (though I think it was T.S. Elliot) yet one of them claimed that "If you would not have God then you can have Hitler or Stalin" Harsh words, but quite fair. Communist nations and the Nazi regime were quick to destroy religion and religious allegiance to God (I know that for awhile some lutherans quite liked the nazis but then found out their ultimate goal) and then also very quick to destroy the rights of man.
I am not saying that the best governments are ones that swear on the Bible before making laws, nor am I saying that only christians should be in charge. I have met too many christians (including myself). What I am saying, is that should a political party truly wish to be known for promoting freedoms, they should include my freedom to believe differently to them.
JZ
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Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
This is what they want on day one.
They are asking for more ideas.
I'm not sure what anti-homophobia lesson are but it sounds like an opening for a comedy show.
These are some of our policies. This list will be expanded and developed with the input of members as the party grows.
EDUCATION
Stop funding religious schools and provide real choice. More details.
Stop the chaplains in school program.
Teach anti-homophobia in schools.
No religious attire in schools.
ETHICS
Allow stem cell research
Right to die
voluntary euthanasia
Legal and safe abortion
Same sex marriages and equal rights for all
Lesbian IVF availability
Ban male and female circumcision
LEGAL
Remove references to God/Bible in law
Constitutional separation of Church and State
A secular Republic, free of hereditary privilege
No anti-discrimination exemptions for religious schools and businesses
Abolish tax exemption for religions
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
yeah, I think that most of what this is is people writing when they are hurt and angry.
Not a good time to sit down and try to nut out what should be done with full rationale.
Great to see you here Damo,
JZ
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Since I don't really know what their true position is, I don't know how to answer this....
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
I was expecting you and you have failed to disappoint. Which is much better than failing disappointedly.
As I said to Damo, I think that these policies were written by people in pain. Admittedly, I think pain is a great motivator. But not always is the motivation a good one.
I would say that to take away the tax exemption of religions could have terrible side effects that they have not fully considered. There are many churches out there that actually involve themselves heavily in their communities and with services such as help for people that have are drug addicts/physically abused. To tax these would take away resource from something having a great effect on people.
JZ
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Dude, for a second there you sounded like a Bond villain...
OK, just to stick with your tax example for a moment, let me say that this is a grey issue, not a black and white one. Again, though, we may not be talking about the same situations. I agree, some churches do good things and could be adversely affected by taxation. But on this side of the planet, there have been some alarming trends in some of our churches of late (primarily evangelical churches and some of the so-called "megachurches"). Namely, during the last couple elections, there have been lots of churches and church leaders that have played a political role. When a church starts campaigning on behalf of a particular candidate, or a preacher tells his congregation that they should vote for so and so, a line is being crossed. Once a church becomes a political institution, it is no longer tax exempt.
Now, I have no idea if that has been an issue in Oz. If not, then the taxation issue may strike you as very different.
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
COOOOOOOOOOOOOL. I have been planning on taking over the world. What stops me is usually the effort it would take and the question that I think stops most would be world dictators. What would you do the day after you took over?
I have seen the trend that you have noticed where a charismatic pastor can push a political agenda. Personally, I don't think that they should say "vote for X because me, the man of God, is telling you to vote for him." That is facist. I don't think you need to be a big church to do that.
As far as megachurches being evil, well, yes and no. What is worst about them is that they tend to develop aculture. With that being said though, because there are so many people around you can find some good ones if you take the time.
Always good to see you mate, be blessed,
JZ
Comment by DJDazz
I for one am thoroughly against an Atheistic government and will move from Australia should one seize power in Australia.
My studies in History (JZ, you know my passion) has shown Atheistic governments to be totally and violently self-centered.
The three greatest causes of the non-natural (ie massacres/famine/war) loss of life in the last 100 years have been in order:
1. Mao's China - between 70-100m
2. WW2 - approx 50m
3. Stalin's Russia - 20m
Mao, Hitler and Stalin were champion Athiests with Mao and Stalin's Communist states violently oppressing any form of religion. Whilst Islam is also violent, Atheism in the last 100 year has been even worse. Bin Laden pales in comparison to Mao.
Each of the three seized power then changed laws to keep themselves in power and by doing so destroyed the rights of the indiviuals along the way. No-one was allowed to question the state. Those who did were eliminated.
I am Chinese and I detest everything that Mao stood for. The man even purged the very people who put him in power, even the loyal Communist Party members.
I have no qualm with any atheist personally. But I find it ironic in the extreme that modern democracy especially the right of the individual derives from Christian states gives atheist individualistic power. A power they choose to demand that Christianity plays no part in deciding the future.
Modern English democracy originated in the English Civil war when the Roundheads lead by the Puritan, Oliver Cromwell fought for Parliment againt King Charles 1 who wanted an absolute monarchy.
Atheistic government? No thanks. They have proven to be the most evil of governments.
My 2c
Dazz
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
I don't have a problem with religion that is low-key and out of government. The problem is, as Winston alluded to, that they (especially in the evnagelical movement) aren't content to live and let live. They want full conversion of society to their vision of reality.
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
nice to have you here.
Your point about only atheists being able to be moral isn't always true. I think what it boils down to is that to do things because you'll be blessed is fairly mercenary, and therefore, not true good. To do good things because you should do them is an attitude that I think christians should have. I try but don't always succeed.
I do disagree though on your point about "Still, in the large picture of history, the worst societes are always the most religious, especially christian/islamic." Communists (the type that we have had, not the ideal you are saying we should have had) have managed to cause great amounts of damage. The funny thing is that in this area, I think similarly to you but different. What I think, is that we have not as yet had a perfectly christian society. And even these christian societies did produce some things that are worth holding onto.
The evangelicals that offend most non-practitioners of any religion do tend to annoy practitioners of their own religion as well. I don't want to force conversion on anyone. It isn't the real thing and it is not acting like a christian should.
I hope I see you again.
JZ