Sanctimonius Bullspit
March 27th 2008 23:05
On the basis that the bullets are still flying over at the christians and abortions post at hidden eternal treasures and the previous few posts that have been written by Raven, Winston and co. there comes a point when something has to be said or done about the whole matter about christians vs. atheists. A long time ago they used to simply throw christians to the lions. Now we simply throw them to the internet. It's alot more fun and there's less blood to clean up. What I'm not saying is that one side has clean hands and the other doesn't. We're both human, both imperfect and have alot that needs to be fixed.
There's an excellent article here that I think everyone should read and then we can sit down and have a good civilised chat.
And here's the thing. What has been written from the atheist view about bits of christianity is true in some parts and out of context in others. Some people have said things which are fairly venomous and quite nasty. If I was going to throw something back I would lead the way with the fact that Stalin, Hitler and Chairman Mao were all atheists. Of course, that would be rude and inflammatory so I'm not going to. I could also say that most serial killers and rapists (since the subject was brought up) are also not of a religious bent. As true as it may be, it's not appropriate to throw that at a group of people and say "Well, THAT'S what YOU people believe is okay." Mainly because they don't.
Christians do have a nasty side to them (I know this from personal experience) and yes, the horrible thing is that many of them try to find a way to justify this with the Bible. I don't and I won't. If I don't like someone, I'll keep it personal and not drag the Bible into it.
Well, that's pretty well it. Tell me what you think. I'd rather have a discussion than a screaming match with anyone.
JZ
There's an excellent article here that I think everyone should read and then we can sit down and have a good civilised chat.
And here's the thing. What has been written from the atheist view about bits of christianity is true in some parts and out of context in others. Some people have said things which are fairly venomous and quite nasty. If I was going to throw something back I would lead the way with the fact that Stalin, Hitler and Chairman Mao were all atheists. Of course, that would be rude and inflammatory so I'm not going to. I could also say that most serial killers and rapists (since the subject was brought up) are also not of a religious bent. As true as it may be, it's not appropriate to throw that at a group of people and say "Well, THAT'S what YOU people believe is okay." Mainly because they don't.
Christians do have a nasty side to them (I know this from personal experience) and yes, the horrible thing is that many of them try to find a way to justify this with the Bible. I don't and I won't. If I don't like someone, I'll keep it personal and not drag the Bible into it.
Well, that's pretty well it. Tell me what you think. I'd rather have a discussion than a screaming match with anyone.
JZ
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Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
I have tried quite hard to keep the venom to a minimum. It serves no purpose if one wishes to have a discussion instead of a pissing contest. You know me well enough by now to know that while I may disagree strongly, I seldom, if ever, stoop to name calling.
I'm not sure if you read my post or not (you referenced it , so I'll assume that you did). I took great pains to keep the focus on atheism and why it is not the evil it is imagined to be, rather than attack the flaws in Christianity or any other religion. Yes, there have been nasty comments around here in general lately, some of them deplorably so, from BOTH sides. As one would predict, this has accomplished exactly nothing.
Then again, nothing will be resolved by silence, either. It is our right, and a necessity, to maintain a dialog from both ends in order to work towards mutual respect. There has to be common ground, but until either side concedes even an inch, nothing will change.
At this point I'm not going to bother picking apart any issues you raise in this post (OK, just this one, 'cuz it bothered me -- there have been so many killings committed in the name of religion, that your serial killer example is rendered completely irrelevant. Let's not go down that road!) That's really not why I'm here. I am here because I respect you, and because I have always been the recipient of your respect in turn. Do I agree with you? No! Will you ever agree with me? Never. Would I sit in a pub and have a beer with you? Happily. There's a lesson to be learned in that, somewhere....
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Well said.
Yet I am very aware that if I am the judge jury and witness for the prosecution i can win any argument in my own head.
I am right just ask me.
Then again the most anyone can ever say is 'In my opinion'.
Comment by TBT
Comment by Louie
Climate Forum
Climate Red
randomthoughts
Phil's Wellness Tips
I think everyone should simply agree to disagree, it is about RESPECT. We should all respect each other's right to our own opinion and not impose our views on others or get angry when they disagree.
There was a great story I can't find that did the rounds a few years ago, the Urban myth was that is was an exam paper asking the class to prove the existence of something (I forget what dam it) the student concluded that we are all going to hell!!!! Becuase none of us respect our respective religions or beliefs, so we are all condemned.
Great balanced post.
RESPECT!!!!!
Comment by Lilla
Enviro Warrior
An Extra Ordinary Life
Dream Herald
Right on .couldn;t agree more.. you have my respect and admiration for that..
Lilla ...
Comment by KylieW
Celebrity Obsession
And you're so right. For every horrible thing that's been done in the name of religion......there's some athiest dude who has done something equally as repulsive (this post served as a good reminder for that).
really well done
Comment by JohnDoe
Film & TV on DVD
I would be interested to know where the stats on "Most murderers and rapists are atheists" came from too? After all priests and other religious figures have exploited their power since the beginning. Religious wars (murder) too seem to be larger in number over the centuries than the entire prison population.
Just for the record I am a spiritual being, but in no way affiliated with any organized religion.
Good work JoshZ, always enjoy a provocative read
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
He was in bed with the Catholic Church from the start and described himself as a Christian.
The Pope sent him birthday wishes and wished him many more as the fuhrer.
And the more 'murderers are atheists' thing is bogus too. More crime is committed by people who consider themselves religious than by those who don't. And usually, the more religious, the more violent the crime. Most murderers on death row in the US are from so-called Red States- those traditionally aligned with the religious right.
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
you've written three comments, but I'm going to try and nail all three in one go.
I think in general that there should always be some kind of ground rules to communication on the internet. The only problem with this is that the second they were ratified they'd be broken. So it's a fairly useless idea. Nice but useless. The benefit of the article that I linked to is that it doesn't try to prove alot, it simply asks that we all remember that we have the ability to be polite, even to people that aren't polite to us.
I'm aware that Winston didn't take part in the argument about abortion. I respect him for that.
As far as the Hitler thing goes, I'd heard that originally, yes, there were churches that jumped up to support him. Until they found out the kind of madman he was. I admit now, I don't know enough to aruge the whole thing out. I would recommend looking into the life of a man named Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran pastor who was executed during the reign of the reich.
I hope I see you again soon.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
good to see you.
I read it (admittedly it was fairly quick as I was at work) and it kind of helped give me the encouragement to write this.
I believe as you do, that we should have a dialogue. And that it should be polite and respectful. Silence doesn't help us understand each other any further.
As far as the sharing of a beer goes, I don't drink, but I'm sure we could come to some kind of arrangement.
See you soon mate,
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
you tend to be a good voice of reason.
One of the reasons I like you.
Our opinions, as much as they are our own, have to be strong enough to be maintained, but flexible enough to grow and change if they have to.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
I am glad you liked it.
Feel free to come by anytime.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
thanks, glad you liked it.
The paper you're referring to was written by an enigneering student on whether hell was exothermic or endothermic.
If if was one it would mean that hell would eventually grow colder and colder till it froze over. If it was the second, it would expand until popping and all hell would break loose.
I'm fairly sure it can be found somewhere onthe net.
Come back whenever you wish,
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
glad you liked it and that I earned your respect.
I remember an exchange of words I had with a guy once. I can't remember what lead to us having the disagreement but he said "You don't like me because I'm gay!" To which I responded "No, I don't like you cause I think you're an a$$#0!e."
We both had a good laugh.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
thanks, glad you liked it.
Like I said, we're all human and all imperfect.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
glad you liked it, though I wasn't trying to provoke anyone.
I'll admit, I haven't quite looked up the numbers yet as far as the atheist/theist serial killers and rapists go.
Not sure where to look really.
As far as abusing power goes, the old saying "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." is still true. It is one of the reasons I agree with a split between church and state.
I'm glad you liked it.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
sorry it took me so long to get back to all of you.
This has been the first chance I've had to answer everything.
I thank you all, and I hope I see you again.
JZ
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
in that case, you're getting the first round.