What is it that makes a christian a christian?
January 21st 2007 11:38
Joe Bloggs asked me these questions. They are good questions and now I intend to answer them. I apologise for the lateness in doing so.
I've got a question for you my uncanny look-a-like (though I think that Mr Bloggs looks far better in tight pants than I do) ,
Disregarding all the flowery claptrap that goes with any religion, if I chose to live my life by the BASIC (eg: every sperm isn't sacred etc) fundamentals of Christianity - thou shalt nots - yet don't believe in the concept of Christ, God or organised religion......
.....does that still make me a Christian?
I ask this in all seriousness mate.
In fact, if I may be so bold, I'd like you to address it in your blog as a post.
Do you need to believe in Christ to be a Christian?
They are kind of the same question, so I will try to answer them at the same time.
The beauty of christianity is that it is a scandal. It is completely and uncompromisingly unfair. Because no matter how good we are, the nice things we do, they are never enough. But also, no matter what we have done, no matter how bad it was, Christ died for our sins so that any man that allows Christ into his heart is saved. To be honest Joe, to answer your first question is very easy. No. It doesn't make you a christian. I want to answer your question completely though, so I will not be stopping there.
The pivotal point, the main fundamental of christianity isn't the rules and regulations of it, it isn't how often you go to church or read the Bible, it isn't even the belief in the concepts of Christ or God or organised religion. The whole of it is the relationship with Christ. This is what christianity really is. If I think it is my works that justify me, I am wrong. This makes the reality of christianity into something Christ Himself stood against. As a man, He stood against the fact that God was made into an institution of man. As God, he offered Himself to man. If I think it is simply what I know, then I am in love with a false Christ as I see a concept of Him and do not know the real Him.
I love what CS Lewis said about Him. I am paraphrasing here. Christ did not come to us as simply a teacher. He did not leave that open to us. He was either a fiend of hell, a madman, or exactly who He said He was.
I hope that helps Joe. You're welcome here any time.
JZ
I've got a question for you my uncanny look-a-like (though I think that Mr Bloggs looks far better in tight pants than I do) ,
Disregarding all the flowery claptrap that goes with any religion, if I chose to live my life by the BASIC (eg: every sperm isn't sacred etc) fundamentals of Christianity - thou shalt nots - yet don't believe in the concept of Christ, God or organised religion......
.....does that still make me a Christian?
In fact, if I may be so bold, I'd like you to address it in your blog as a post.
Do you need to believe in Christ to be a Christian?
They are kind of the same question, so I will try to answer them at the same time.
The beauty of christianity is that it is a scandal. It is completely and uncompromisingly unfair. Because no matter how good we are, the nice things we do, they are never enough. But also, no matter what we have done, no matter how bad it was, Christ died for our sins so that any man that allows Christ into his heart is saved. To be honest Joe, to answer your first question is very easy. No. It doesn't make you a christian. I want to answer your question completely though, so I will not be stopping there.
The pivotal point, the main fundamental of christianity isn't the rules and regulations of it, it isn't how often you go to church or read the Bible, it isn't even the belief in the concepts of Christ or God or organised religion. The whole of it is the relationship with Christ. This is what christianity really is. If I think it is my works that justify me, I am wrong. This makes the reality of christianity into something Christ Himself stood against. As a man, He stood against the fact that God was made into an institution of man. As God, he offered Himself to man. If I think it is simply what I know, then I am in love with a false Christ as I see a concept of Him and do not know the real Him.
I love what CS Lewis said about Him. I am paraphrasing here. Christ did not come to us as simply a teacher. He did not leave that open to us. He was either a fiend of hell, a madman, or exactly who He said He was.
I hope that helps Joe. You're welcome here any time.
JZ
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Comment by Ash
Australian Traveller
Flashes of memories
It is more about your personal relationship. It is easy to go to Church on Sunday for all the wrong reasons - and live Mon-Sat as you would choose. That is what faith is to me, a personal belief.
I see so many people who claim to be Christians living according to such different values that Jesus would teach. How hypocritical and how better to make more atheists in the world?
Ash
Comment by Adrian
Philosophy Blog
The first way is a sort of practical one. What should someone who identifies with being Christian, or who wants to be worthy of the word, should aim for. What is the most central thing. And you conclude that this is a relationship with God.
The second is a linguistic one. How do you apply the word "Christian" correctly. What is the criterion of correct usage.
I'm personally inclined to think that the answer to the first needn't be the answer to the second. I'd argue that "Christian" means different things in different contexts -- and is dependent, among other things, on who is speaking. For instance, to tick the "Christian" box on the census form uses the word in a different way from arguing over whether this or that group deserves the label.
Comment by David my David
A Christian? = A follower of Christ and His doctrine ... (pretty simple really ... too simple for some?
No organised religion? No Church? ... (Intone John Lennon's Imagine? ... refrains ... A bit of Yoko? ... O No!
Um, what about this quote from Christ Himself about organised religion; about a Church? ... ???
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Selective Biblical interpretation and one-on-one relationships with Jesus regardless of what He said? ... Knock! Knock! (Jehovah's calling ... The magazine is free, but can you please offer us a donation???
Nup, way too funny man ... way too funny ... Bloggs asking about Christianity and you responding ...
Cracks me up big time ...
I'm going man .. this is all too funny ...
Signed: Lapsed Catholic hypocrite ...
Comment by Ahmed
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I don't want to jumble christianity and Islam up but what defines a Muslim is one who has completely submitted to god.
I don't know how similar that is to your brand of christianity, but that pretty much what a Muslim should be in any of its colours.
Comment by Cibbuano
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Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Ash,
Yeah, christianity when used as a blunt object or as only a sunday experience doesn't help people at all. I think it was Nietche (I know I have spelled that wrong) who said something like "I'd be ready to believe in God if only His disciples acted more like they ought."
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
I can't remember which book it was that I read it in (though I suspect it was something by CS Lewis) but the author spoke of christianity becoming only a word in society. I think that is mainly in our own western society where christianity was for such a long time the most dominant religion by virtue of being the only acceptable one.
It's a question I have been asked a few times, "What is it to be a christian" or "what makes you a christian and not me" and when being told by someone that does not have the relationship with Christ that they are a christian it's kind of frustrating because they define the word differently to myself. Christian can mean (or at least, these are the meanings that other people have given me) that someone is simply a very good person, has good moral values or is just very nice. A whole other post might be needed to argue these things (which is now tempting) but the word christian is I think something that shouldn't be thrown around too lightly.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
glad you found it entertaining.
To follow Christ and His doctrine involves alot of things. But they all come out of that one simple thing, which is knowing Him.
But, do I agree with reading the Bible? Yeah, I read pretty well everyday. Do I agree with regularly going to church? Yeah, I go pretty well every week. And I enjoy it.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
admittedly, I know very little about Islam. With that said however I know it isn't what the media makes it out to be. The few muslims I have met have pretty well dispelled that image quite easily.
Relationship with Christ is what leads to God. "No-one can get to the Father except through me." and Christ's mediating to God for man is what brings this together.
Obedience to God is also tied up into christianity. Loving Him leads to obeying Him as well. Submission to God's authority over one's life is what Jesus taught many times.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
Thanks for dropping by, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
JZ.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
there is arguement that they are not, but that isn't what I am posting about.
It is however, an interesting topic.......
Which might lead to a post.
JZ
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
There are thousands of Christian denominations, each with different views. In order to answer the question you would have to specify what type, otherwise you will get either vague platitudes or someones preconception of what you are talking about.
Even if you asked what do christians have in common you would find several that would have nothing in common with each other.
Simply put any religion has members of three types:
Cultural: Those who were born into it and see it as part of their identity;
Habitual: Those that show up out of habit like a compulsive obsessive.
Convinced: Those that has accepted was they have leaned about their religion as sound and reasonable.
I make no judgements about what people are.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
JW's Do not believe in the Holy Spirit. Mormon's accept other books as the Bible.
These are key doctrinal differences, and while they may not sound particularly important, without essential pieces, or by adding other things, the message that Christ preached is changed.
JZ
Comment by Luke
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Looking at the word and it's meaning, a 'christian' is a follower of Christ. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are followers of Christ, end of story. Anything disputed beyond that is a matter of denomination.
Comment by DuskDevi
Rucks and Rolls
Rugby World Cup 2007
As I said...an I for fair. A eye for insight.
Brilliant.
The post and your comments.
Dusk
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
This has been a great discussion about what started from an honest question.
But it has walked into an area that needs to be addressed in a separate post.
What is it that DOESN'T make a christian? Going to be a little dogmatic, a little doctrinal and more than likely, very black and white.
Again, thanks for everyone that dropped in. I am sorry that I can't address all your comments here, but I will do my best to nail the ones I didn't nail in the next post. I will do my best to have that post done by tomorrow night.
JZ
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
thanks my MOSTEST Diamond Gamma Sister, first lady of the Stephen Larkham fan club.
As always Dusk, your words are appreciated.
JZ
Comment by DuskDevi
Rucks and Rolls
Rugby World Cup 2007
What you've written...for me, about me...
That's just lovely.
Thank you my friend...right back atcha
(except for the "...
Dusk
Comment by Joe Blogg
Joe Blogg's Blog
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Cultural: Those who were born into it and see it as part of their identity;
Habitual: Those that show up out of habit like a compulsive obsessive.
Convinced: Those that has accepted was they have leaned about their religion as sound and reasonable.
The above is well put Damo.
Josh,
Just thought I'd chuck this in from Wikipedia:
Protestantism (from "protestors") is one of three main groups within Christianity, typically referring to European churches that separated from the Roman Catholic Church during the Renaissance-era Protestant Reformation. A commonly given definition is merely "any Christian denomination which is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian." The term "Protestant" now represents a diverse range of perspectives, denominations, individuals, and related organizations, all typically focused on a worship of Jesus and a deference to the New Testament over the Old.
The Reformation came about through a number of factors, notably that Rome had abused its political power (hence failed to provide for salvation), and the advent of the press —the printing of the Gutenberg Bible and dissident publications soonafter. But different Reformations had both a different character and different result depending on the region, culture, and theological doctrines. So while Martin Luther's "95 Theses" (1518) (preceded by the Hussites and Waldensians) offers the theological roots for much of Protestantism, the English Reformation (for example) was characterized largely by political power struggle between Rome and the English monarch. These distinctions were to some degree inherited to decendent churches, called "denominations," and notable differences remain between (for example) Anglican Churches and non-Anglican Protestant churches (Lutheran, Calvinist, etc.). "Restorationism," including Protestant denominations such as Presbyterianism, Baptist, and Methodist, characterizes denominations that reject some aspects of the Reformation. Other churches like the Jehovah's Witnesses and (particularly) Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints hold views which diverge rather greatly from "mainstream" Protestantism.
Protestantism is currently the dominant religion of many first-world countries such as the United States and the United Kingdom. Certain forms of Protestantism —in particular, Evangelicalism — is also currently the fastest growing branch of Christianity today[citation needed], with significant growth in countries such as China (Christian News Service), India and many nations in Europe as well as Africa.
==============================
I find it fascinating just how fractured the many versions of basically the same myth have become.
(Not to mention why there are no pictures of dinosaurs in the Bible, Koran or Melways.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, people who have butchered the original 'concept' of the RC faith/corporation like Henry the VIII and his massive Church of England are considered Christians but
sticking to the basic teachings of Christianity but not believing in the possibility that woman came from the rib of man etc and that Christ actually was the Son of God doesn't make one a Christian.
It's a fair cop Josh.
But surely I must be closer to God than anybody who has killed in his/her name.
I just don't know it!